MV residents should be very happy now -- they
have Milk Pail. Who cares about the traffic mess.
Milk Pail will solve everything including the
traffic mess!!!

The Milk Pail WAS a very clever distraction.
A nice carrot dangled in front of the city
council and unsuspecting residents of MV ---
to get support for out-of-proportion,
traffic-mess-creating Phase II San Antonio Center.

The elephant in the room is the congested
elephant-speed traffic on San Antonio Road.

The real problem regarding San Antonio Phase II
is the massive plan for constructing high-density
offices, hotel, cinema, parking garage for 2000 cars, etc.

If you use San Antonio Road on a regular basis,
you know that it is already CONGESTED especially from
El Camino intersection going North towards 101.

Citizens of MV appear to be concerned with Milk Pail
and ignoring the massive phase II construction that
will cause miserable traffic congestion.

Once you have unbearable traffic, a town is no longer
desirable. Parts of MV are there already.

Maybe you should read the plan, so you know what is happening with San Antonio. Then you could raise some relevant points

Of course we have read the gigantic plans:
Web Link (http //www.mountainview.gov/depts/comdev/planning/activeprojects/sanantcenter.asp

It is also quite interesting that those who wanted more
residential development in Phase-2 have gone silent abruptly.

And everyone sees the traffic everyday already.

Once the traffic becomes totally unbearable -- hope there
will be petitions from MV residents to scale-down the project.
Can't deny the traffic mess reality indefinitely.

I am so happy the Milk Pail will survive this massive transition! I actually moved to Marin about 6 months ago and I still make sure to stop at the Milk Pail when I come down to visit friends! Believe me, it is a rarity to find great quality produce at an even more fabulous price anywhere in the Bay Area!
My only concern now is about how congested the whole area will be once this whole complex (and that's a perfect word for it!) is built. Even if the Milk Pail provides more parking spaces the traffic in and out will be horrendous!
Oh well, the little guy finally won for once! I wish them all the luck in the world!

The gigantic plans you linked to don't show the San Antonio Rd plans other than bike lines.

There is more going on than that

Looks like the citizens of MV have been hoodwinked by the Milk Pail
market issue when the more serious issues have been sidelined.

Developers do the following to maximize profits without any concern for quality of life and livability of the surroundings...

(1) Build with no setbacks.
(2) Build as many stories as possible.
(3) Remove heritage trees and just pay pittance in fines -- even
$5million won't be enough per heritage tree. But the city is
happy to take a few thousand dollars as fines.
(4) Build high density with no concern for the traffic mess and
destroy livability of a town.
(5) Build cheap with no architectural aesthetics.
(6) Charge high rents because the young recent grads working
for world-class companies are able to afford it.
(7) Don't show any interest in the community and not worry
about schools for the kids living in the 1000 apartment
complexes. Pretend that since the residents today are
20-somethings, there will never be small children ever
in those apartments.
(8) Pave concrete everywhere and not provide ADEQUATE green
space for the 1000's of apartments and offices they build.
(9) Focus only on the returns for the developers themselves
and their far-removed investors.
(10)Add inexpensive glitz and glamour to the development and
pretend that the buildings are upscale.
(11)Present studies that show no traffic increase when the traffic
is already a disaster for everyone to see and experience today.

But are there any checks and balances to ensure the livability of
a town? Yes -- but it is only as good as the citizens that are
willing to elect the right officials for city administration.

Once again, Merlone Geier held the city council hostage. And this time, they got pretty much what they wanted.

Glad to see the Milk Pail saved (for now, anyway) -- but not happy it (presumably) is at the cost of two other businesses.

I just avoid this area of town altogether unless I have no choice.
Its a complete train wreck.

No need for the housing lobby. Lenny shoild thank them for being useful in delays until milk pail got sorted

Oh happy day! Mountain View is losing the war, but we've won this David and Goliath battle. Traffic, congestion, overcrowding and all the other horrible problems will plague us with or without the Milk Pail, but this outcome at least preserves one of our city's most beloved icons.

Traffic will be badly impacted. The result will be miserable, especially at the intersection of San Antonio and El Camino. Merlone Geier, Planning, and Council all knew this. It was clearly stated in the Draft Environmental Impact Report. But given the premise that Phase 2 would happen on the scale that MG wanted, the impact was deemed "Significant and Unavoidable".

If you want to see what MG and Council have given us, take a look at the Draft EIR (Web Link The San Antonio-El Camino intersection is discussed as "Impact TR-4", starting on page 3.13-24. The intersection will "unavoidably" go to "Level of Service F", as shown in Table 3.13-11, on page 3.13-26.

There is a proposed mitigation measure, to improve the intersection slightly. It is not a certainty that it will be done, and in any case it would not be anything like adequate to reverse the deterioration of service.

This is what we get from our developer-friendly council. I don't expect anything different from the incoming council.

It's a shameful situation. But we can be thankful for small victories - at least the Milk Pail was saved. Thanks to everyone who spoke up!

Time to get signatures to suspend any development that will
aggravate traffic congestion. Time to get signatures to
scale-down ridiculously over-sized development.

Money is speaking so loud in MV that it is deafening.
And the traffic, pollution ... already unbearable.

Builders are doing their job namely squeeze everything they
can to make most money for themselves (at the expense of
quality of life in MV). The city council is saying, go ahead and
destroy the city... just pay a couple of bucks as fine.

The residents are not standing up for themselves to save
their city.

It makes sense to put these offices and stores within walking distance of the San Antonio Caltrain station. Also looking forward to the new buffered bike lanes on San Antonio Road and California Street.

"The residents are not standing up for themselves to save
their city."

I think this is due to the city council's policy of banning all citizens from going to the meetings. That's what I heard anyway.

Oh wait...

Web Link

"Most speakers at Tuesday's meeting voiced support for the project, noting that it replaces an outdated center that no longer serves the community's needs. And several retail tenants also spoke about the anticipated business boost that would come from Phase 2."

Hmmm.... the Milk Pail, a small business having mediocre produce past its prime, gets to stay at the expense of 2 other small businesses. Whoppee. I don't see any concern or sympathy for the owners of the other businesses.

The development of the San Antonio shopping center is the legacy of the current City Council, and outgoing Councilmembers Jac Siegel, Ronit Bryant, and Margaret Abe-Koga.

Thanks so much for building a nightmarish center, where merely trying to enter the center and find a parking spot is a challenge, due to its design and layout. Can't wait to see how awful it's gonna get with the additional development.

Merlone Geier never "held the Council hostage." That's ridiculous. The Council has the authority to nix/amend the proposal.

6:00pm weekday evening meeting for the due process...
everyone is allowed to participate.

Lot of people are suffering the traffic congestion
and have to endure the massive out-of-proportion
deveopments -- however, they are busy raising families,
busy with their careers, etc. Who has the time to attend
meetings on weekday evenings?

The unsuspecting citizens expect the city council to do the
right thing -- pay attention to traffic mess, etc. when
approving projects.

Developers on the other hand have armies of support staff
to go play the necessary roles in these weekday evening
city council meetings and get whatever they want. Quality
of life or the livability of a city be damned.

In summary... citizens of MV have been royally hoodwinked
with the distraction called Milk Pail while traffic mess
is the reality already even before Phase-2 gets started.

Petition is the only way to deal with the traffic mess.
That is the only democratic process available.

Techie -- "Merlone Geier never "held the Council hostage." That's ridiculous. The Council has the authority to nix/amend the proposal."

If you actually believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.

" If you actually believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you."

Guess you missed all the meetings where the council asked for yet ANOTHER change.

and the 44 bed retirement housing project was shot down by a lot of the same people....

but if it's not something you like, it's a big conspiracy isn't it?

"6:00pm weekday evening meeting for the due process...
everyone is allowed to participate. "


The agenda is printed ahead of time. Anyone can look at it. If you were watching on tv, you'd see that the comments were still going past 8pm.

Last week the meeting got out at about 1030.

The city council members will actually respond to emails... imagine that!

I can guarantee that if I plan to see a movie and drop into the Milk Pail I will not park and then move my car to do so. Likewise, most Milk Pail shoppers will not be parked for more than 20 minutes, 30 minutes max.

Designated parking makes no sense.

Shared parking makes a lot of sense.

The city council seems to be turning a blind eye to the
traffic woes. Perhaps they are naive? Or perhaps they
don't care?

Asking for input from residents, when the traffic issue
is staring the city council in their face is so disingenuous.
By asking for input, they appear very democratic and
look good. But, OK'ing out-of-proportion development
despite the traffic mess we are already in -- really
disingenuous.

The victory for Milk Pail will not last long. Even the sample merchants in the renderings of the latest design telegraph a tony market, and it does not fit well in the new scheme of things.

While I enjoy the nice sentiment to have the little guy win one, I suspect the traffic congestion will discourage shoppers. If I were the shady developer, I would lease to a new, competitor food store for below-market rates. With good margins, that market, full of halogen-lit fruit with its implied superiority, will draw away what customers Milk Pail retained.

Hilariously, the city agreed to the enormous subsidy for the restaurants in the development. All those Linkedin employees will be buying their lunch at the downstairs cafes. What a bonanza! (You can bet there was no deal to eliminate competition for food markets)

Yes, the developer got only 95% of what they wanted, and, hooray, the little guy got 5%. But only for a while.

There's already a whole foods and a trader joes in the area and also, the large new Safeway carries some organic produce. But Milkpail is doing great nevertheless, and it's easy to see why: both prices and quality are better. So I'd say your argument is a bit of a conspiracy theory. Milkpail is very competitive as far as I can tell, and I'm very happy I can keep shopping there. The rest of this project looks great too, thanks much!

I am afraid that "saving" Milk Pail will end up being a pyrrhic victory. Given where we are today, I can't imagine how this monster of a project won't make traffic unbearable.

No housing, 2000 employees, a useless hotel, and a movie theater? A MOVIE THEATER? That just kills me. The center is NOT pedestrian friendly (have you TRIED walking from the Starbucks to the Counter, through the Safeway parking lot?), and you can't easily walk to it from across the train tracks. Or from anywhere, really. The traffic will be EPIC.

The outgoing lame duck council members are laughing in the faces of voters who overwhelmingly voted for more housing and balanced development. And yes, I did email the council. More than once. Let's hope that once the new council is seated in January, they can quickly make amends to this abomination. It's more important than Milk Pail at this point, frankly.

I don't think you can ignore the number of folks who shop and support the Milk Pail where I have shopped for many years. I disagree with Resident who said " the Milk Pail, a small business having mediocre produce past its prime" Obviously Resident hasn't shopped there! They have 13,453 likes on Facebook!
Their produce is excellent and cheap, their cheeses(and many other items) are excellent and cheap. It is truly an international market. You hear many different languages spoken. Steve goes out of his way to carry products from the countries that are represented here in the Peninsula. Most of their food is better and much less than Safeway, Whole Foods,etc. I like East Coast apples-they carry Macoun, Empire, Cortland,etc. from NY. Its charm is that it hasn't been remodeled into a sterile new building They now have Tiffany, a cheese expert, giving samplings and pairings at the entrance. Very smart marketing tool. The Milk Pail didn't hold up anything. The developer was aggressive to make money. Mt. View needs low income housing. A greedy developer( and obviously the Council) doesn't care who they affect. It's all about revenues. Mike Kasperzak, a friend, couldn't understand why Steve didn't want a newer larger space. He obviously doesn't shop at the Milk Pail. He doesn't "get it".

I also am happy for the Milk Pail, but very sad for the other small businesses. And yes, traffic will become even more hectic with drivers that still text, talk on their cell phones, ues no blinkers, change lanes in a blink of an eye (Good Lord, do not blink!!!),have no regard for others.

The good thing about all of this is that as we've seen here, the most legitimate opinions are those that criticize what elected officials do.

I used to think Rush Limbaugh was just buffoon, but now I see I was wrong.

He is THE most important person out there in the political commentary sphere because he is always bashing the president-- a president everyone had the chance to vote on.

I used to get annoyed with the conservatives who wouldn't shut up about Clinton for years after he was out of office. But now, I realize that the most important part of "democracy" is to complain when you don't get your way.

And even for years after you didn't get your way

I am so happy the Milk Pail will survive but it is a pittance thrown to us in exchange for making the traffic worse. 2,000 employees that can't have a cafeteria so the will be forced to either walk to a $15 burger joint or DRIVE to a more reasonable place to eat.... My guess is the Safeway will become the cafeteria so forget about dropping in for a quick item anywhere lunch time.

How do we get a grass roots campaign to completely stop the development until there are enough schools for the children on that side of El Camino? They just raised property taxes in Los Altos over $600 to help pay for new schools for all the kids in the new developments. Tell us how to stop this growth insanity!

Again, I'm very happy we get to keep our Milk Pail but I already cut my trips there by half due to the horrible traffic we have now... so I can't see I'll shop more often when we have to deal with movie patrons and all the others.

Oh yeah, I just wrote a reply to Santa Clara protesting their plan to take 1 lane on each side of El Camino away for transit busses. Think driving to your homes is bad now.... just wait.

UGH!!!

I am very happy for the Milk Pail but I'm more upset the traffic and super density has caused gridlock, destroyed our views of the mountains, stolen our quality of life with the only "benefit" we got was to pay much higher property taxes in Los Altos to build schools for all these kids in these new developments. oh yea, and the gridlock around school times from parents driving kids to and from school as they think it unsafe to walk across El Camino to attend Egan and Santa Rita.

Don't forget Google is building a massive complex at the old Mayfield Mall....

Count me in for ANYTHING that helps delay this absurd building.

Just a reminder that part of the title of this article is about the Milk Pail. "Milk Pail market saved" so its 13,000+ supporters should be able to have a say about that particular issue. For those of us who are low income the Milk Pail offers quality food at lower prices. It is a symbol of the haves overpowering the have-nots.

Unfortunately, development is the main issue in Mt. View, Palo Alto, Menlo Park(where I live),etc. Both the PA and MP elections had candidates who don't want excess and inappropriate development. Traffic is the main issue for all 3 cities.

Earlier this year PA residents successfully scuttled a proposal to build a larger building at the corner of Hamilton and Rqmona. The PA City Council chambers are often full on the Monday nights they meet. They have a strong Neighborhood Coalition that connects the large # of groups alectronically which allows them to share the CC agenda so they can attend when a development issue comes up.The PACC has been loudly criticized for making development deals behind the citizen's backs. It sounds like you need to form a similar anti-development group in Mt. View.

There has been opposition in MP about the planned large Stanford development which replaces the abandoned car dealerships. Measure M was on the ballot about that very project.

In Palo Alto the Jisser family wants to sell the Buena Vista mobile home park where many low income Latino families live. They live there because they want their kids to attend the PA schools.There is a "Friends of Buena Vista" group that keeps trying to prevent Jisser from selling the land to a developer who wants to build high end housing. Thew PA City Council keeps rejecting the package the Jisser family has been proposing to give to the tenants to get them to move out. Unfortunately, it has been calculated that they won't be able to stay in PA where their kids are going to school. Lawyers are representing the BV residents.

ALL of these issues are part of the 1% vs the 99% phenomenon. Our grassroots Stop the Ban Coalition successfully got the PA City Council to rescind the awful vehicle ban against homeless people whose housing is their car or van. Again thanks to 2 legal decisions. There was even one affluent Council member, Larry Klein, who wanted the ban to continue! There is NO affordable housing in Santa Clara County. That's why it has the 4th largest number of homeless in America.

Instead of building a movie theater they should be building low-income housing. Perhaps all the anti-development groups and ant-development City Council members could band together and get legal advice since that's what has been delaying some of these projects. This is an important dialogue. Grassroots activism works.

I go to the MP daily and have no traffic or parking issues.
I ride my bike. Many others do as well. That's one demographic that won't be chased away. MP should put up big bike racks! It's so easy on a bike.

OMG what a bunch of whiners! If you don't like the traffic, you could move to Montana. I bet most of the complainers weren't born in California anyway. I'm looking forward to the new development, though I too am glad the Milk Pail has been spared.

Oh yeah forgot the bike riders that don't follow the rules of the road either, dart in and out of traffic. Ya, easy on a bike. Thanks for the reminder.

@Lynn Huidekoper
But anti-developments groups don't want any affordable housing. Also, building low-income units is a costly policy that will benefit a lucky few at the expense of the slightly-less poor middle class who will be forced away.

Justin,
I have to disagree with you. Where did you get the idea that anti-development folks don't want affordable housing? They don't want more businesses if there isn't adequate parking and they generate a lot more traffic than low income housing. An affordable apt. would only have a few folks needing parking.

Affordable housing for seniors would house 1-2 people at most. Many senior women outlive their husbands and need an apt. so that's only one person. A business would have lots more employees who would need parking. That is precisely why PA folks got a business development project for the corner of Hamilton and Ramona rejected. Even though the business plan would have added 9 parking spaces that wouldn't be enough for the number of employees that the businesses would need adding to an already severe lack of parking in downtown PA.

The middle class can't afford the current housing,either. Most seniors live on fixed income, the rents are too high for many middle class folks. Why is low income housing "costly"? It certainly would be less than building high end apartments.

Sunnyvale has 2 housing groups building apts.for low income and homeless people on the location of the former Sunnyvale National Guard Armory. Other cities should follow suit.

There are college and high school students who can't afford the rents and have to sleep in their cars. You need to Google the facts that are out there. Many of the vehicle dwellers have jobs but can't afford the high rents,either. Many are "middle class folks".

@Lynn Huidekoper
The people elected to Palo Alto City council are on a "residentialist" platform AKA preserving the quality of life for everyone lucky enough to afford to live in Palo Alto and keeping anyone else out. Pro-housing advocates are accused of "being in the pocket of developers." The anti-development folks want to require more parking and have taxpayers pay for public garages instead of reducing demand for parking by installing meters.

I'm not totally against low-income housing, but requiring developers to subsidize it or imposing rent control is going to raise the cost of supplying housing, so the units that do get built are higher-end. And you may not want more higher-end housing here, but the lack of supply here is bringing techies to SF, Oakland, Berkeley, even East Palo Alto.

There is way too much demand in the Bay Area for reasonable quality housing that is near affordable, but all the building restrictions and regulations make it worse. That includes height limits, low-density zoning, and parking minimums that are enthusiastically supported by anti-development folks.

Okay - so is it too late for a petition? And if not, is there one already in process? Are there any other options for residents to band together to fight this?

Also, it's obvious the MV City Council was never looking out for their "constituents". Please be very careful the next time you vote.

Reposting --- Posted by time-for-petition
a resident of another community on Dec 3, 2014 at 5:25 pm

6:00pm weekday evening council meeting for the due process...
everyone is allowed to participate.

Lot of people are suffering the traffic congestion
and have to endure the massive out-of-proportion
deveopments -- however, they are busy raising families,
busy with their careers, etc. Who has the time to attend
meetings on weekday evenings?

The unsuspecting citizens expect the city council to do the
right thing -- pay attention to traffic mess, etc. when
approving projects.

Developers on the other hand have armies of support staff
to go play the necessary roles in these weekday evening
city council meetings and get whatever they want. Quality
of life or the livability of a city be damned.

In summary... citizens of MV have been royally hoodwinked
with the distraction called Milk Pail while traffic mess
is the reality already even before Phase-2 gets started.

Petition is the only way to deal with the traffic mess.
That is the only democratic process available.

Here is a link to an OLD OLD petition that includes how the process works.
Web Link
(http //balancedmv.org/preparing-for-the-volunteer-petition-drive-against-phase-2/)
Interestingly, the people who touted that petition have gone silent
inexplicably after the phase-2 is approved now.

A petition can be started only after the phase 2 is approved, which
it has been. So the gates are now open for the petition, but there
is limited time.

Someone needs to take the initiative to set up the process.
There is very little time -- barely 3 weeks to get ~3500 signatures.

Otherwise, the unbearable traffic that is already a mess will
make MV the gridlock city and San Antonio Road in particular the
Elephant Way, where traffic moves like an elephant if at all.

Due to repeated violations of our Terms of Use, comments from this poster are automatically removed. Why?

If you're letting traffic be your guide... MDU's or not... where are there more cars? Outside expensive housing, or outside "affordable housing?"

As a resident in the area of the shopping center, this push to build has created a nightmare as far as quality of life here. Too many people, not enough attention to traffic issues, people who say "walk or take public transportation" without regard for the people who can't do either of those things, more children in the area but no thought to schools or other services for the people coming in.

I moved here because it was a pleasant town with good schools. Now, due to the desire to increase tax revenue, we build excessively in some ares and not at all in others. Why is the ugly shopping center on El Camino with the Baskin Robbins spared, yet other areas razed without regard to the desires of the public?

I am not opposed to building or improving what is here. What I AM opposed to is the thoughtless drive to increase density without regard to the impact on current residents. I'm sorry, but the people already here should be the priority, not the desire for more dollars.

3500 signatures in two weeks is what is needed to create
a petition and then move forward with a referendum.
What happened to some vocal posters that wanted to
start a petition?

Time is limited -- just 2 weeks is all MV residents have.

The traffic caused by Phase-2 will be so horrendous -- it
will be the most nightmarish development seen in MV and
elsewhere. Office buildings, movie theater, hotel, 2000+
car garage -- what were the council members thinking.

The developers are doing their job namely focusing on their
return on investment. Unfortunately, it is not their
job to worry about the horrendous traffic, quality of
life after phase-2 etc.

MV residents... are you listening?

"Why is the ugly shopping center on El Camino with the Baskin Robbins spared"

Because the landowner of that site has not decided to re-develop the property. The other areas have.

The majority of people who complain about such issues as development forget that NOTHING happens until someone who owns something decides to do something. Council will of course set land use rules (like the recently passed El Camino Real Precise Plan), but nothing changes until there is an applicant.

I live at Carmel the Village, and love it so far, traffic and all. However, I'm sure Phase II will drive up the rent, so I plan to vacate before sticker shock hits.

And my own personal beef: since when did the original HP garage in Palo Alto lose the "Birthplace of Silicon Valley" title?

Because Shockley's organization produced the first silicon device! You know silicon, right? It's the first word in Silicon Valley!

Just because Palo Alto decided that the spot where no silicon inventions were made is the "birthplace of silicon valley" doesn't mean it's true. Just like Hayward calling themselves "heart of the bay" doesn't make it true

Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley because of the entrepreneurial spirit that
personified Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard. Therefore the birth place of Silicon Valley is still the HP Garage. The kind of human beings that Bill and Dave were,
that HP Garage is also the birthplace of business with humanity and dignity.

The birth of Silicon is Shockley's lab in MV. Please learn more about
him here: Web Link (http //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shockley) .
Unfortunately, Shockley was a "staunch advocate of eugenics" as mentioned in
the Wikipedia. Not sure that MV needs a reminder of that unfortunate association.

That original Shockley's lab is no longer there in the San Antonio Shopping
center -- it has been a produce market for a while. Very interesting that
it has now gained recognition -- perhaps the developer wants to tout it
as a great thing that they want to "attach" to the phase-2 shopping center
development. This is called marketing!

>Shockley was a "staunch advocate of eugenics" as mentioned in
the Wikipedia. Not sure that MV needs a reminder of that unfortunate association.


Well...there is a Planned Parenthood right across the street...