"Quinn said it could also mean fewer public benefits of the type the council has already expressed interest in: bike and pedestrian mobility improvements around the San Antonio shopping center."

As usual, the City Council has not defined the type and size of any of these public benefits. We've seen that movie before with the approval of the 1616 El Camino Real Prometheus project. Phase II will likely be no different; way over zoned development without any sizable public benefits.

By the way, can anybody point to the public benefits received from Phase I?

SB:

"By the way, can anybody point to the public benefits received from Phase I?"

~~~~~~~~~~


Sure...the entertainment value of watching cars try to pull out of the very poorly placed driveway on to El Camino Real less than 15 yards from the intersection of El Camino and San Antonio. I have seen a couple of fender benders and numerous near misses there. Sometimes, as I sit for 5+ minutes waiting for the light to change, I get a real thrill and might see TWO near misses. (Sarcasm intended)

European visitors are often amazed at us here in the USA as we drive from parking lot to parking lot to do our errands even if the lots are only a few hundred feet apart. What they don't realize is that our parking lots are for designated businesses and that parking in a lot for a different business is frowned upon.

In Europe, parking in a centralized lot and walking from business to business is the norm.

If we want to consider ourselves more like the European model, then we have to act like Europeans. We have to park at a centralized lot and walk. I see no difficulty in parking outside Kohls, Bev Mo, or Ross and doing several errands. Designated parking for one business and then being expected to drive to the next errand is unproductive, a cause of extra traffic and pollution and bad for our overall health. No European would do that.

@PA Resident:

Forget Europe, it's exactly the way Downtown Mountain View operates. Why can't the same be planned for a new revitalized San Antonio Center?

I have little doubt that the Milk Pail Market will no longer be at its current location in 2016. I hope that it will thrive somewhere else in Mountain View.

Best of luck to Mr. Rasmussen. This market is a wonderful part of our community.

How about moving to the Rose Market area?

I really used to like Milk Pale in the early 90s. Something changed for me, maybe the crowds, but I've found my alternative, and that's not the point.

Though I don't patronize it anymore, I FULLY support the city making every effort to save it from the development group that is trying to kill it off.
The fact that I hated the crowds is testament to its popularity with the city.
I just HATE the little guy being pushed around by a bully, in any and all areas of life. Stay strong Milk Pale!

What about moving Milk Pail to the old Safeway location across the street? Or has that been slated for another development? What about the old Dittmer's location on San Antonio? I'd even like to see it move to somewhere around Castro Street where it would be more accessible to pedestrians/bikes/CalTrain users. It could even open up on Farmer's Market days.

This San Antonio place is really uninteresting. One fat Safeway and a bunch of pricey restaurants? Is that it? Where are the new shops? Sears was ugly but at least you could buy things you need there, like clothes and household goods. It's sad if this useless facade of nothingness might spell the end for a beloved institution like Milk Pail.

I agree with Jac that Mountain View does not want to end up in court with Merlone Geier. Make (Milk Pail parking) a condition of approval of Phase II is asking for trouble.

However, the City Council does not have to jump up and salute when Phase II comes before them. A few delays while City Council and staff adequately study the effects of Phase II will send a message. How about giving every resident of the property, commercial and residential, a flyer explaining the need for the Milk Pail?

Continued support by this newspaper, the public, city staff, and City Council are needed.

@MVLife:

The article itself addresses the old Dittmer's site. Talks with commercial broker in charge of the property did not go anywhere.

As to the old Safeway site, Prometheus is planning to build 306 apartments at that location. A recent MV Voice that refers to that project can be found here:

Web Link

I don't know why City Council cow tows to these developers. It's like they're afraid that the developers will take their project somewhere else. Haven't they ever heard of location, location, location? The developers aren't going anywhere - in reality, they'll give anything to get this project done. What city council needs to do is just ask and they'll get what they want.

Maybe the solution is to build underground or rooftop parking?

"Rasmussen said he first considered the former Dittmer's site across San Antonio Road, on the ground floor of another large development. He met with a commercial broker about using the site and "nothing became of that meeting," Rasmussen said in an email."

That would of been the best solution in my opinion.

"Rasmussen said he has also considered buying the corner property next door where Oh My Sushi and Savor Mexico Taqueria are located, and using it for parking. But Merlone Geier bought the property instead, presumably to redevelop also"

Evil Developer doing everything in there power to remove the mil pal. I think the developer should not only play for a new place and cost of moving for the Milk Pal, but pay for harassment and emotional stress brought on by the way they are dealing here. They outta be sued.

Where does personal responsibility play into any of this?

If your business depends on access to 17 parking spaces, you better find a way to secure those parking spaces.

Or, some day, the person who owns those spaces may want to do something different with them. Which is their right as the owner of those spaces.

The City shouldn't get involved at all. This is bad planning on the part of a private business. Let them figure it out.

The City states the Milk Pail needs 22 parking spaces. I have shopped the Milk Pail many times and it looks to me that there are at least 10 employees and 30 to 40 shoppers at any given time. It also looks like the Milk Pail has more than 30 shopping carts which is an indication that they need probably 50 parking stalls to function as a business. In what I have read these past years it appears the Milk Pail has benefited from an old parking agreement that has given it the ability to grow its business to what it is today while using another property for its large need for parking. Rasmussen new this agreement would terminate but it appears has done nothing to plan for it except complain and ask the City to get involved. We have all signed leases and agreements that have an end date and we all must live and deal with the leases we have signed. Rasmussen better start working on his new location which I hope he finds or it will Only be his fault the store closes. This is not a government issue as we currently have to much government in our lives. On another note it appears the developer has made him an incredible offer to pay for 100% of all his moving cost and pay for all the improvement costs to his new facility. How many business ever get an offer like that ? It sounds like Rasmussen is holding out for the big pay day. That is dangerous or maybe it is showing another side of Rasmussen.

@Equality:

The 22 parking spaces is the *current* city requirement for the Milk Pail business to stay open. It does not imply that 22 spaces is the optimal number of parking spaces for the business; it's really a minimum. It's up to the business owner to decide what the ideal amount of parking is.

It is responsibility to the business owner to follow local regulations. Mr. Rasmussen has two years to figure it out because his current parking agreement won't expire until 2016.

Note that the article explains some of Rasmussen's potential solutions that have fallen through: the possibility to buy property next door (Savor Taqueria, Oh My Sushi) to provide the city-mandated parking spaces (the property was gobbled up by Merlone Geier), as well as investigating relocating to the former Dittmer's site (the property owner apparently isn't interested). It's not like Rasmussen has his head in the sand.

The local real estate market is very competitive. Maybe there's a commercial property in a good location but the rent is high or the landlord doesn't want to sign a long-term lease. If Rasmussen moved there, his business's existence might be threatened might by higher costs or a sudden rent increase in a short interval. Let's say there's an affordable property, but the location is not ideal. Perhaps customers will stop coming.

Rasmussen cannot simply wave a magic wand and have the ideal property appear (with a willing property owner).

We can only speculate what is going on in the head of the former Dittmer's property owner. Perhaps they are waiting for Merlone Geier/Prometheus/some other well-heeled developer for the big payout.

It may just come down to luck. Rasmussen has two years to find a suitable location elsewhere. There's really no predicting what commercial property will become available between now and then. Certainly had there not been a fire at Dittmer's, that property would have not been an option.

In my opinion, the City created this problem and it is up to the city to resolve it. As I outlined in an article that I wrote about a week ago, the current PRECISE PLAN that the city passed in 1989, specifically REQUIRES that all businesses in San Antonio shopping center participate in shared parking:

Web Link (San Antonio Precice Plan Calls for Shared Parking)

The rules from this precise plan are still in effect and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why it is being ignored. It may not have been legal for the City to make that requirement in the first place, but if that is the case, then that is still no excuse for the Milk Pail to have to pay the price for the City's mistake!

From every way I have looked at this issue, the Milk Pail has been in compliance with the parking regulations that were in place at the time of its expansion, and is now being penalized because the rules of the game were changed after the fact. If the city did not want the Milk Pail to expand and was so concerned about it providing parking, then they should have required it at the time, not 20 years later when they want to have a multi-million dollar makeover of the center!

Perhaps everyone thinks if they just ignore that fact that the current agreement MANDATES that all businesses in the center must share parking and work cooperatively, this problem will just go away, but I don't intend to let that happen! I will keep speaking out about this because I see a huge injustice here.

To me, this is no different than using Eminent Domain to seize the Milk Pail, except in this case, the rules of the Precise Plan are being ignored, while the rules for parking are being enforced in order to shut down a small business in favor of a large one. This is not fair, it is not right, and it is not good for Mountain View! If this can be done to the Milk Pail, then whose property is safe?


You can read the Current San Antonio Precise Plan here:

Web Link


Jim Neal
Candidate, Mountain View City Council
http://electneal.org
info@elelectneal.org

The petition about the Milk Pail mentioned in the article is at:

Web Link

Lived in Europe also, centralized parking or in case of Downtown MV shared parking, which in ordered to compete against places like San Antonio Center. Entire businesses and homes were bulldozed to make space for parking, sad truth many really nice landmarks were torn down. In Europe the 39-45 war did that job nicely.

In order for San Antonio Center and area to surive, shared parking must coutiune, or face a parking war.

Out bidding each other on property is so normal and happens in real estate every day.

If people chose to.drive from parking lot to parking they can do that but with acres of buildings scattered over a large area, don't see any choice.

Remember Milk Pail when it was a drive through dairy. Also like any businesses it needs customers, 306 apartments across from a really nice place to buy food.

The petition about the Milk Pail mentioned in the article is at:

Web Link

In regards to the Geier development:
"Plans also call for 1,480 parking garage spaces"

Later in the article:
"Essentially, what would be asked of them is to add 17 spaces at their expense to another property owner. That's a highly unusually circumstance. I don't know if that's ever been done". -City Manager Dan Rich

So, with a proposed 1,480 parking spaces, Geier won't give up a measly 17 to the Milk Pail? This level of greed is unconscionable and has no place in our community.

"Their (Merlone Geier's) development doesn't change (Rasmussen's) fundamental legal obligation, under today's law, to have 22 parking spaces," said Rich. "That has always been the case and will remain the case."

First, as Jim Neal pointed out, it's not clear is has always been the case.

Second, why should it always remain the case? Is the City trying to get us to believe is has never once changed parking requirements on any project? Why not here and now?

I still say that the designation of parking lots is an outdated idea and just an excuse.

For anyone doing any type of business in the San Antonio Center, they park where there is a space and should be able to run several errands at the same time. I personally have shopped in Safeway and eaten in a restaurant as well as walked to WalMart without moving my car. I park in Target and walk to Kohls. In the old days, I would park outside Sears, eat at Burger King and visit CVS, with perhaps a walk around Sears to window shop. I also parked outside the old Safeway on Cal Ave and walked to Milk Pail to buy produce and cheese.

I have no problem with parking and walking so who cares where I park. I would probably choose a spot nearest the place where I intend to buy the heaviest/most purchases. I do not propose to park 3 separate times if I plan to visit 3 different locations.

Stop using parking spots as leverage.

Merlone greed can't or won't give up 16 parking spots in a $600!million development? Are you a part of the community or not?
We all ready know the answer.
Come on city council show some courage and stand up to these guys.
The development is already an out of place monstrosity.

Move the Milk Pail over to North Whisman! We'd welcome you with open arms!

This is a wonderful business in a wonderful town and should not be allowedto be pushed out.

Mqybe the old Safeway store should made temporary parking while any kind of phase 2 is built with parking.

Shared Parking is a must.

Am I understanding correctly that "shared parking" does not currently exist? When I consolidate my errands and make stops at Trader Joes, Daiso, Joann Fabric, The Milk Pail, and the noodle house, am I supposed to be moving my car from one area of the parking lot to another?!

If Merlone Geier had a brain (a heart?) and knew anything about good public relations, they would recognize and embrace The Milk Pail as treasured community resource and do whatever they can to incorporate and support the original Milk Pail Market in their development. Acting like an out-of-town bully is not winning them any friends.

BTW, I'm having a hard time seeing how the New San Antonio is an improvement over the Old San Antonio. I used to go to Sears for tools, the shoe store, the CVS, the sporting goods store and maybe even the Burger King or German Bakery while in the area. Now there's nothing there for me. The new Safeway is nice but has way more crowded parking than the other couple of Safeway stores nearby, I don't need a new bed and am not spending $10 for a hamburger. I'm always looking for an excuse to go shopping but there's nothing at the New San Antonio. Is anyone finding this corner a useful destination?

Squeezing out every last bit of profit shouldn't be the only factor in making business decisions. If it were me, and I could rent out 5% of my parking spaces to ensure the survival of a longtime crown jewel in the community AND build immediate goodwill with thousands of residents in the process, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Some business decisions are wise for reasons that can't be measured in dollars.

I live across the street from the Milk Pail and shop there often. I've also planned to be a frequent customer of Paul Martin's and Pacific Grill. Though now I'm starting to rethink that. I wonder how long it would take Merlone Geier to come up with an equitable deal for 17 measly parking places that the locals who live here want to see happen - if myself and my neighbors started protesting in front of the new shopping center? We don't need parking. We can walk there. How hard would it become for Merlone Geier to lease out the remaining empty shops in Phase I? In Phase II? Start being neighborly, and I'll be happy to spend money in your shopping center. Until then, NO.

Anyone company could have came in to purchase the property and closed the lots.

Reality is all those properties on that corner depended on the former owner of Ross/Woolworth building. Seen the city general plan where shared parking is vital to the survival of the center.

It is why I signed the petition, wrote the developer about the shared parking and told as many people about the Milk Pail.

@incognito
Agreed, not much going on in phase 1. There are other Safeway's. Cheap overpriced apartments. Overpriced restaurants.
Phase 2 more of the same. Supposed to appeal to the "region" I suppose.
The carrot for the city is tax revenue.
The stick for the neighbors is congestion, construction and destruction of Mountain View ambience.
If merlon greed cared, Milk Pail could be incorporated into the complex, sort of like a retro ball park.
But given the position of majority of city council---"what can we do? We can get sued! Our hands are tied"-- it's a done deal.

The city council blocking any development projects in MV, is like putting donuts in front of a diabetic and telling them they can't have any.

The city council blocking development projects in MV, is like putting donuts in front of a diabetic and telling them they can't have any.

Hard to understand where the City's legal fears are coming from.

We've all been led to believe that the developer was proceeding ahead of the precise plan at its own risk, that there is no automatic approval and that the City would be demanding significant public benefits in exchange of concessions.

Could the City really be sued if it denied the whole project? And would the City even need to provide a reason for denial? Sure hope the answer is no.

So City Council, don't hide behind the lawyers, if you don't like what you see.... Just Say No!

So far as I can tell from the San Antonio Center Phase II Draft EIR and Appendicies March 2014,
the corner properties are not included. This prevents another hideous " gateway" like the one on el camino.
Unlike the majority of our city council the Milk Pail hasn't sold out,

I still dont think we all get it. MP needs 50 plus parking stalls not 22. MP has at least 10 employees so where do all the customers park ? Rasmussen is a smart man and has built his business using others property at probably a cheap costs as its an old lease. Good for him so far. I have been there many times and saw his large trucks parking in the Ross drive way and the cars had to drive all over the place. I also saw his fork lifts driving in the customer area which is dangerous to all of us. Rasmussen has a great business and should try to keep it going. He also has not invested much into his business as the parking lot needs alot of work and it is pretty messy inside. It looks like he has been reinvesting back in his business. Maybe because he new this was going to happen. Steve invest in your future and move the MP to a location that will work for your.

I live a few blocks from the Milk Pail and believe we should do all we can to keep ti.

It should stay and we should find a way to stop all development that has done NOTHING for the local community except:
-Gridlock on San Antonio Road
-Destroyed our views of the Mountains from El Camino that we used to see looking over Sears....
-Gridlock on Los Altos streets to and from schools crossing El Camino
-Gridlock along El Camino with what looks like thousands more housing units coming soon to make it even worse.

All this building is making a once nice community into another Manhattan of over priced restaurants and shops few can afford just to generate property taxes to pay excessive benefits to city workers the politicians promised in exchange for "support" to get elected. If Google needs expensive housing for their young workers, let them build it near Google so they can walk to their jobs.

Stop the DESTRUCTION of our once beautiful community!!!

The MV council is capable of helping with the Milk Pail dilemma. Saying that the local government cannot become involved is a lie. I watched as they denied Home Depot permission to build on the old Emporium site. Home Depot had leased the property from the Tan Group. Everything was moving forward. Then there was local public outcry. The whole issue ended up going to the MV voters. Minton's got up and cried that business would be lost. Where is Minton's now? Raking in a fortune from leasing their land to real estate developers who charge $8k/month for a 2BR apt. Milk Pail is the underdog, and nothing Merlone Geier puts up will be equal to the unique quality that Milk Pail brings to MV.

Since Google moved in, I've watched low income complex after complex in both Sunnyvale and Mountain View being torn down and redeveloped. Forget the Mountain View and Sunnyvale names. Merge them and rename them Googleville.

Milk Pail works, because the owner was smart enough to buy the land and develop it a loooong time ago, so the assessment is low. If he were to move to another location, his property tax bill will skyrocket. Guess who pays for that... the customer! Prices would have to go up or food quality will go down.

If all the owner cared about was money, then he would sell out. Unfortunately, the greedy developer is trying to force him out and acquire the property. This hostile action is being ignored by the city. Don't we all remember when they put RAZOR WIRE all around his property to prevent Milk Pail's customers from using other parking areas (that they were legally allowed to do under a parking agreement)?

You know, if someone were to put razor wire around one of the council member's home, the police would have dragged them away. What penalty did the developer get?

The developer is demanding all these concessions on zoning...while demanding to do whatever he wants with his property. Sorry buddy, if you want to destroy the neighborhood, then you will need to give something back. Sharing that gawd-awful enormous parking structure with the heritage businesses like Milk Pail would be a good start!

"All this building is making a once nice community into another Manhattan of over priced restaurants and shops few can afford just to generate property taxes to pay excessive benefits to city workers the politicians promised in exchange for "support" to get elected."

Ouch, the truth hurts!

"Merlone Geier may never be able to meet that condition," if the Milk Pail is not satisfied with the agreement, Quinn said.

The City routinely forces businesses to take the same leap of faith by mandating membership in a Tranportation Demand Management Agency (TDMA). Isn't TDMA membership a condition of approval for Phase II?
Is Parking Demand Management really that different than Transportation Demand Management?

These sort of issues happen often. MV city council could require REMEDIATION that requires the developer to lease "the corner property next door" to Rasmussen for a $1 a year as long as The Milk Pail is in business with "low prices that benefit the community" as a CONDITION for approval.

Put a few trees there and keeping it open space for cars to park would be a net positive compared to cramming more multilevel crap we don't want right to the street without a setback.

>>> "Rasmussen said he has also considered buying the corner property next door where Oh My Sushi and Savor Mexico Taqueria are located, and using it for parking. But Merlone Geier bought the property instead, presumably to redevelop also. "Did I mention that I'm not a bank?" Rasmussen said of the deal."

Remember: All this building is making a once nice community into another Manhattan of over priced restaurants and shops few can afford just to generate property taxes to pay excessive benefits to city workers the politicians promised in exchange for "support" to get elected.

Th Milk Pail came through for MVEF (Mountain View Educational Foundation) last night by donating and serving its beautiful cheeses at MVEF's Gala last night. Mr. Rasmussen is a generous community member - we need more like him!

Thank you, Milk Pail!

Any person or company could purchase land in the San Antonio Center, close the acess and parking to the public. Also many businesses don't want other peope using their parking spaces while shopping someplace else.

Shared parking.and free acess cross property lines have meant survival to the business within the center, but ongoing investment and expansion of the shopping center means survival for the center.as a whole.

We could have our own St Peter Church dilemma in Mtn View
Citigroup Center hovers over Saint Peter's Church, the small building with the slanted roof in front.

Web Link

DC - here's another one Web Link

Great story thanks for the link. maybe the Milk Pail can be a symbol of resistance!
City staffers/union members are hooked on tax revenues to fund salaries/pensions. Council majority are "dazzled".
To the polls!

Love the milkpail. Over time, this conflict, like so many others, will play out and we will see whether David or Big money, err, Goliath, can win. The real question is WHEN will Mountain View even try to help our children?? San Antonio gets developed more and more, and yet, with all the new kids coming in, over crowding LASD schools, there's simply no responsibility shown by the MV City Council, none. In the end, whether Goliath or David wins, we all lose with no thought going towards our children's future...

Meanwhile, Phase I already shows signs of being under-parked. Anyone seen parking spilling over to other properties by "The Counter"? More proof that shared parking has to be planned and managed throughout the area.

Yes, the parking spills over into neighboring areas. Better to come in through the back way than try to approach the parking lot of of San Antonio.

Speaking of big money, in the California state Sen. Leland Yee's case, he only voted for the money. Not saying this is what's happening locally, but...out of town developers sure weigh in with the city council majority as oppoesed to residents.

Anyone know where the "new" phase 2 plan is online? The one that outlines what they will do with the newly acquired corner property next to Milk Pail on the corner of Calif and San Antonio where Savor Taqueria and Sushi place are? Why couldn't Merlone Geier put shared parking there for Milk Pail to use too? The developer could solve this problem which the locals want - but they are greedy and don't want to. MV City Council should stay strong and not allow developers to push the community to do something wrong in so many ways!
I walk, bike and drive to Milk Pail and I want to do this for another 17 years, please listen to the people.

I confess I love the tiles in the new development, and I love to look at them was I wind my way through to Trader Joe's, but only TJs and Milk Pail get my business.

The rest is just soulless glitz.

If The Milk Pail moves down to Castro, it will lose my business, although I'm sure there will be many others who will continue or join the shoppers.

Hopefully it will remain where it is, or find a location close by.

Sad a business may have to close or move, but the owner will do fine, He will get higher than market rate, plus assistance to move. Get on with it one way or the other, it is starting to look like he is holding out to get the most money he can, Good for him! Plenty of space is available and his loyal customers will follow! The world and what small space Mountain View takes up on it is changing and it to must change. Change is good. A new Milk Pail will do fine.

Milk pail survives financially because the owner fully owns the property at a low tax assessment. Moving to a property with a much higher expense load will result in a significant price hike or loss of variety and quality. He relied on decadeS-old city plans that designated the area with a shared parking model.

How can anyone defend the crap that is being built there is beyond reason.

I love, love the Milk Pail for many reasons........their products, prices, charm, etc. and I shop there twice a week - once for my family and once for a non-profit I work with.

What stands out for me is the owner's model of giving back year after year to the areas schools - across all grades levels (from Pre-k to High School) in our Community.

In a brief conversation I told him about a cooking program benefiting at-risk-youth in the Community and without even asking he handed me a variety of spices to use with the kids and a huge, very expensive bag of Parmesan cheese that could be used over a period of time.

He also donates generously to other non-profits in the area......if you've enjoyed a sangria in the past fews years at the art and wine festival, be sure to thank the owner of the Milk Pail, Mr. Rasmussen as he donated the fruit.

Thank you for supporting our Community!!