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Price tag swells for high-speed rail

New $98.5 billion cost projection adds fuel to criticisms of controversial project

The cost of California's proposed high-speed-rail system, originally pegged at about $36 billion, has nearly tripled since the project was presented to voters in 2008, according to a business plan that the agency charged with building the new system released Tuesday.

The estimated price tag for the rail line, which would stretch from San Francisco to Los Angeles, now stands at $98.5 billion and could end up as high as $118 billion under the most expensive scenario, the California High Speed Rail Authority (CHSRA) has concluded in a highly anticipated report.

The numbers in the new business plan exceed not only the rail authority's earlier estimates, but also projections from rail watchdogs and the state Legislative Analyst's Office, which expected the price tag to exceed $60 billion. The detailed 230-page document supplants the rail authority's 2009 business plan, which was panned by state legislators and nonpartisan analysts as incomplete and optimistic.

While the rail authority's new plan continues to make a case for high-speed rail as an economically viable alternative to building new highways and airports, its ridership and revenue projections are more conservative than those in previous analyses. The report also provides more details about the rail authority's plans to expand the line from its initial Central Valley segment, which would stretch between north of Fresno and north of Bakersfield, to the more populated cities in the state's northern and southern regions.

But the biggest difference between the current plan and its predecessor is the cost projection. The rail authority argues that the significant cost jump was caused by major changes in California's landscape since officials first began the project more than a decade ago. The state added almost 5 million people between 2000 and 2010, the plan states, and large expanses of previously vacant land have become "bustling communities, suburbs and roadways."

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The 2009 plan, for example, estimates the cost for building tunnels for the rail line at less than $6 billion. In the new plan, the estimate for tunnels is greater than $15 billion. For aerial viaducts, the cost estimate has climbed from less than $5 billion to more than $13 billion.

"The new development landscape has necessitated adding many miles of elevated structures, tunnels and other infrastructure," the report states. "The new designs permit access to major downtown population centers with less community impact and disruptions."

In addition, the timeline for completion of the project was extended by 13 years – to 2033 – which added $27.5 billion in inflation costs and $16 billion in contingencies, the report states.

To justify the rail project's price tag, however, the authority states that other transportation infrastructure – including 2,300 miles of new highway lanes and various airport improvements that would be needed over the next 20 years – would cost more than $170 billion.

"Providing equivalent new capacity through investment in highways and aviation would cost California almost twice as much as the Phase 1 (San Francisco to Los Angeles) high-speed rail system," the report states.

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The new plan does little, however, to resolve the lingering uncertainties over how to pay for the new rail line -- a colossal project for which state voters approved a $9.95 billion bond in 2008 but which has attracted skepticism and heated opposition in the three years since Proposition 1A passed. In Palo Alto, the City Council has taken an official stance of "no confidence" in the project after initially endorsing the 2008 bond measure.

The rail authority's business plan relies heavily on public financing, particularly for the "initial operating segment," which would build off of the Central Valley segment either north to San Jose or south to the San Fernando Valley. The rail authority is banking on federal and state funding to pay for this segment in its entirety. Once the trains are running – a point at which the system would be profitable, the authority asserts -- it hopes to draw about $11 billion in private investment for the system's expansion.

After the "initial operating segment" is constructed, effectively establishing the nation's first high-speed-rail system, the rail authority would focus on the "Bay to Basin" phase, which aims to connect the state's two megaregions by linking San Jose and San Fernando Valley. Once that's done, high-speed rail would be stretched further to connect San Francisco to Los Angeles -- a link that provided the main justification for Proposition 1A. The authority also hopes to later extend the line to Sacramento and San Diego.

The business plan calls the phased approach, with public investment upfront and private investment later in the process, "the prudent course to build a foundation that allows for greater efficiency in the use or private investment once the initial segments of the system are in place."

"As additional funding becomes available, operating sections will be added, to create the full statewide system," the report states, emphasizing that each segment of rail line, from the "initial operating segment" onward, would be financially self-sustaining. "This incremental approach is how most large transportation projects are built, both in the U.S. and around the world. It will accelerate benefits for California and will attract private investment far earlier than if the system were built as a whole."

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For the "initial operating segment," which is projected to cost about $25 billion, the rail authority expects to draw about 80 percent of the funding from the federal government and the balance from the state. The federal subsidies under the plan's projections include both grants and tax credits. So far, the authority has received about $3.4 billion in federal grants.

The document acknowledges that federal funding will remain uncertain for years to come, but stresses that the incremental nature of construction would allow the project to proceed even if the plan's federal-funding projections fall short. Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have been particularly vehement in opposing the rail project, which many have characterized as a "boondoggle."

"There is substantial discussion in Congress related to reducing deficits and the federal government's role and scope," the business plan states. "It is clear that continued uncertainties will exist and that prudent planning assumes that funding will be limited in the short term.

"Any congressional initiatives on infrastructure funding and short-term job creation may improve this situation, but the Plan does not rely on such measure."

The plan also notes the authority would also need about $4 billion in local or "other" contributions to complete the "Bay to Basin" phase.

The new plan also incorporates some of the components of a proposal that U.S. Rep Anna Eshoo, D-Palo Alto, state Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, and state Assemblyman Rich Gordon, D-Menlo Park, made earlier this year. The three Peninsula lawmakers proposed a "blended system" in which high-speed rail shares tracks with Caltrain on the Peninsula – rather than building a separate track system for the ultra-fast trains. They also voiced opposition to an earlier proposal by the rail authority to send the new trains over the Peninsula on aerial viaducts.

The business plan calls for integration between high-speed rail and Caltrain. Initially, after the "Bay to Basin" system is completed, ending in San Jose, passengers would hop onto Caltrain to take them to their destinations. After the later "Phase 1" to San Francisco is completed with improvements to the Caltrain tracks, passengers would have a "one-seat ride" and not have to change trains in San Jose. The plan stresses that it "proposes to develop the high-speed rail system in a way that more clearly and effectively integrates it with regional and local rail systems to create a statewide rail network."

"The commitment to a blended system has been initiated through extensive cooperative planning among state, regional, and local partners," the plan states.

Dan Richard, one of two people who were recently appointed to the rail authority's board of directors by Gov. Jerry Brown, said at a Tuesday hearing on the business plan that the new plan "embraces" the blended approach championed by the Peninsula lawmakers.

"The fact of the matter is that we have the opportunity to use existing right of way and existing corridor and existing infrastructure on the San Francisco Peninsula and, as we move to Southland, by Caltrain and Metrolink," Richard told a state Assembly committee. "We know that we need to now work in partnership with those systems to develop long-term plans for blended service."

Simitian, who has been one of the Senate's leading skeptics when it comes to the rail authority's projections, praised the plan's adoption of the "blended" approach on the Peninsula. He called it "very different from their earlier proposal."

"They've put aside the notion of a viaduct and the notion of going beyond the existing right-of-way," Simitian told the Weekly. "They're talking about a 'one-seat ride' where you stay on the same track in the same train in the same seat as you move up and down the Peninsula."

Eshoo said in a statement the blended-system proposal that she, Simitian and Gordon offered earlier this year "will save taxpayers billions of dollars while being responsive to the many concerns of my constituents" and said she was "pleased to see that the CHSRA draft business plan included many of the blended system provisions."

But while local legislators praised the rail authority's new emphasis on a "blended" system, they continued to voice concerns about the system's ridership projections and cost estimates.

Ridership numbers remain a thorny issue. While the 2009 plan anticipated 41 million annual riders by 2035 and $3 billion in annual revenues, the 2012 plan gives a range of 28.9 million to 42.9 million riders. The plan assumes that the average fare price to ride the new train between San Francisco and Los Angeles would be about $81.

Simitian praised the new plan for being more frank in its cost estimate than previous projections.

"The good news is that we finally have a realistic number on the table," Simitian said. "The bad news is it's a very scary number."

Others shared his concerns. Elizabeth Alexis, co-founder of the Palo Alto-based rail-watchdog group, Californians Advocating Responsible Rail Design (CARRD), said that while the report is better than earlier versions, it still fails to address her group's criticisms about the rail authority's ridership numbers. Her group has persistently characterized the authority's numbers as unrealistic. Other rail experts, including professors from the Institute for Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley, had also found flaws in the methodology the rail authority had used to get its ridership numbers.

"It's a lot more information; it's much better written. But they haven't changed anything really other than making the cost of the system more realistic," Alexis said of the new business plan. "They're still using the same ridership model since 2007."

Alexis, whose group had long maintained that the price tag for the new system would rise significantly, said the new business plan confirms that the rail system would cost "a lot more money than we have in the bank."

"It's enough money that if we want the high-speed-rail system, the California taxpayers will be asked to contribute more than they already have," Alexis told the Weekly.

The rail authority on Tuesday characterized the plan as the foundation for a project that will create 1 million jobs and reduce carbon emissions by 3 million tons annually. Thomas Umberg, chairman of the rail authority's board of directors, said in a statement Tuesday that the board has "carefully constructed a business plan that is mindful of the economic and budgetary constraints facing both the state and the nation."

"It will deliver to California and Californians a cost-effective, efficient, and sensible alternative to more highways and increased airport congestion," Umberg said.

But the business plan, particularly its revised cost estimate, is also expected to add fuel to the criticism from Sacramento lawmakers who have long argued that the project is too expensive and should be scrapped. At Tuesday's briefing on the business plan, state Assemblywoman Diane Harkey, a leading critic of the project, said the state is already "drowning in debt" and predicted that the system would require government subsidies.

"I think there's going to be a sticker shock for the people of California," Harkey, R-Dana Point, said. "The more they know, the less they'll like it. It shouldn't be that way with something this important."

Gordon offered a more measured response, but also said he is concerned about the latest cost estimate for the project. In a statement, Gordon called high-speed rail "a powerful vision and dream" and said he hopes the state will find the means to implement this vision. But he said he was "concerned about the present price tag and the expectation that much of this will be paid for utilizing public funds."

"California remains in a fiscal crisis," Gordon said. "We do not have enough revenue to meet our expenses as is.

"Until we address our structural fiscal problems, I do not see how California can afford additional debt from high-speed rail."

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Gennady Sheyner
 
Gennady Sheyner covers the City Hall beat in Palo Alto as well as regional politics, with a special focus on housing and transportation. Before joining the Palo Alto Weekly/PaloAltoOnline.com in 2008, he covered breaking news and local politics for the Waterbury Republican-American, a daily newspaper in Connecticut. Read more >>

Follow on Twitter @mvvoice, Facebook and on Instagram @mvvoice for breaking news, local events, photos, videos and more.

Price tag swells for high-speed rail

New $98.5 billion cost projection adds fuel to criticisms of controversial project

The cost of California's proposed high-speed-rail system, originally pegged at about $36 billion, has nearly tripled since the project was presented to voters in 2008, according to a business plan that the agency charged with building the new system released Tuesday.

The estimated price tag for the rail line, which would stretch from San Francisco to Los Angeles, now stands at $98.5 billion and could end up as high as $118 billion under the most expensive scenario, the California High Speed Rail Authority (CHSRA) has concluded in a highly anticipated report.

The numbers in the new business plan exceed not only the rail authority's earlier estimates, but also projections from rail watchdogs and the state Legislative Analyst's Office, which expected the price tag to exceed $60 billion. The detailed 230-page document supplants the rail authority's 2009 business plan, which was panned by state legislators and nonpartisan analysts as incomplete and optimistic.

While the rail authority's new plan continues to make a case for high-speed rail as an economically viable alternative to building new highways and airports, its ridership and revenue projections are more conservative than those in previous analyses. The report also provides more details about the rail authority's plans to expand the line from its initial Central Valley segment, which would stretch between north of Fresno and north of Bakersfield, to the more populated cities in the state's northern and southern regions.

But the biggest difference between the current plan and its predecessor is the cost projection. The rail authority argues that the significant cost jump was caused by major changes in California's landscape since officials first began the project more than a decade ago. The state added almost 5 million people between 2000 and 2010, the plan states, and large expanses of previously vacant land have become "bustling communities, suburbs and roadways."

The 2009 plan, for example, estimates the cost for building tunnels for the rail line at less than $6 billion. In the new plan, the estimate for tunnels is greater than $15 billion. For aerial viaducts, the cost estimate has climbed from less than $5 billion to more than $13 billion.

"The new development landscape has necessitated adding many miles of elevated structures, tunnels and other infrastructure," the report states. "The new designs permit access to major downtown population centers with less community impact and disruptions."

In addition, the timeline for completion of the project was extended by 13 years – to 2033 – which added $27.5 billion in inflation costs and $16 billion in contingencies, the report states.

To justify the rail project's price tag, however, the authority states that other transportation infrastructure – including 2,300 miles of new highway lanes and various airport improvements that would be needed over the next 20 years – would cost more than $170 billion.

"Providing equivalent new capacity through investment in highways and aviation would cost California almost twice as much as the Phase 1 (San Francisco to Los Angeles) high-speed rail system," the report states.

The new plan does little, however, to resolve the lingering uncertainties over how to pay for the new rail line -- a colossal project for which state voters approved a $9.95 billion bond in 2008 but which has attracted skepticism and heated opposition in the three years since Proposition 1A passed. In Palo Alto, the City Council has taken an official stance of "no confidence" in the project after initially endorsing the 2008 bond measure.

The rail authority's business plan relies heavily on public financing, particularly for the "initial operating segment," which would build off of the Central Valley segment either north to San Jose or south to the San Fernando Valley. The rail authority is banking on federal and state funding to pay for this segment in its entirety. Once the trains are running – a point at which the system would be profitable, the authority asserts -- it hopes to draw about $11 billion in private investment for the system's expansion.

After the "initial operating segment" is constructed, effectively establishing the nation's first high-speed-rail system, the rail authority would focus on the "Bay to Basin" phase, which aims to connect the state's two megaregions by linking San Jose and San Fernando Valley. Once that's done, high-speed rail would be stretched further to connect San Francisco to Los Angeles -- a link that provided the main justification for Proposition 1A. The authority also hopes to later extend the line to Sacramento and San Diego.

The business plan calls the phased approach, with public investment upfront and private investment later in the process, "the prudent course to build a foundation that allows for greater efficiency in the use or private investment once the initial segments of the system are in place."

"As additional funding becomes available, operating sections will be added, to create the full statewide system," the report states, emphasizing that each segment of rail line, from the "initial operating segment" onward, would be financially self-sustaining. "This incremental approach is how most large transportation projects are built, both in the U.S. and around the world. It will accelerate benefits for California and will attract private investment far earlier than if the system were built as a whole."

For the "initial operating segment," which is projected to cost about $25 billion, the rail authority expects to draw about 80 percent of the funding from the federal government and the balance from the state. The federal subsidies under the plan's projections include both grants and tax credits. So far, the authority has received about $3.4 billion in federal grants.

The document acknowledges that federal funding will remain uncertain for years to come, but stresses that the incremental nature of construction would allow the project to proceed even if the plan's federal-funding projections fall short. Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have been particularly vehement in opposing the rail project, which many have characterized as a "boondoggle."

"There is substantial discussion in Congress related to reducing deficits and the federal government's role and scope," the business plan states. "It is clear that continued uncertainties will exist and that prudent planning assumes that funding will be limited in the short term.

"Any congressional initiatives on infrastructure funding and short-term job creation may improve this situation, but the Plan does not rely on such measure."

The plan also notes the authority would also need about $4 billion in local or "other" contributions to complete the "Bay to Basin" phase.

The new plan also incorporates some of the components of a proposal that U.S. Rep Anna Eshoo, D-Palo Alto, state Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, and state Assemblyman Rich Gordon, D-Menlo Park, made earlier this year. The three Peninsula lawmakers proposed a "blended system" in which high-speed rail shares tracks with Caltrain on the Peninsula – rather than building a separate track system for the ultra-fast trains. They also voiced opposition to an earlier proposal by the rail authority to send the new trains over the Peninsula on aerial viaducts.

The business plan calls for integration between high-speed rail and Caltrain. Initially, after the "Bay to Basin" system is completed, ending in San Jose, passengers would hop onto Caltrain to take them to their destinations. After the later "Phase 1" to San Francisco is completed with improvements to the Caltrain tracks, passengers would have a "one-seat ride" and not have to change trains in San Jose. The plan stresses that it "proposes to develop the high-speed rail system in a way that more clearly and effectively integrates it with regional and local rail systems to create a statewide rail network."

"The commitment to a blended system has been initiated through extensive cooperative planning among state, regional, and local partners," the plan states.

Dan Richard, one of two people who were recently appointed to the rail authority's board of directors by Gov. Jerry Brown, said at a Tuesday hearing on the business plan that the new plan "embraces" the blended approach championed by the Peninsula lawmakers.

"The fact of the matter is that we have the opportunity to use existing right of way and existing corridor and existing infrastructure on the San Francisco Peninsula and, as we move to Southland, by Caltrain and Metrolink," Richard told a state Assembly committee. "We know that we need to now work in partnership with those systems to develop long-term plans for blended service."

Simitian, who has been one of the Senate's leading skeptics when it comes to the rail authority's projections, praised the plan's adoption of the "blended" approach on the Peninsula. He called it "very different from their earlier proposal."

"They've put aside the notion of a viaduct and the notion of going beyond the existing right-of-way," Simitian told the Weekly. "They're talking about a 'one-seat ride' where you stay on the same track in the same train in the same seat as you move up and down the Peninsula."

Eshoo said in a statement the blended-system proposal that she, Simitian and Gordon offered earlier this year "will save taxpayers billions of dollars while being responsive to the many concerns of my constituents" and said she was "pleased to see that the CHSRA draft business plan included many of the blended system provisions."

But while local legislators praised the rail authority's new emphasis on a "blended" system, they continued to voice concerns about the system's ridership projections and cost estimates.

Ridership numbers remain a thorny issue. While the 2009 plan anticipated 41 million annual riders by 2035 and $3 billion in annual revenues, the 2012 plan gives a range of 28.9 million to 42.9 million riders. The plan assumes that the average fare price to ride the new train between San Francisco and Los Angeles would be about $81.

Simitian praised the new plan for being more frank in its cost estimate than previous projections.

"The good news is that we finally have a realistic number on the table," Simitian said. "The bad news is it's a very scary number."

Others shared his concerns. Elizabeth Alexis, co-founder of the Palo Alto-based rail-watchdog group, Californians Advocating Responsible Rail Design (CARRD), said that while the report is better than earlier versions, it still fails to address her group's criticisms about the rail authority's ridership numbers. Her group has persistently characterized the authority's numbers as unrealistic. Other rail experts, including professors from the Institute for Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley, had also found flaws in the methodology the rail authority had used to get its ridership numbers.

"It's a lot more information; it's much better written. But they haven't changed anything really other than making the cost of the system more realistic," Alexis said of the new business plan. "They're still using the same ridership model since 2007."

Alexis, whose group had long maintained that the price tag for the new system would rise significantly, said the new business plan confirms that the rail system would cost "a lot more money than we have in the bank."

"It's enough money that if we want the high-speed-rail system, the California taxpayers will be asked to contribute more than they already have," Alexis told the Weekly.

The rail authority on Tuesday characterized the plan as the foundation for a project that will create 1 million jobs and reduce carbon emissions by 3 million tons annually. Thomas Umberg, chairman of the rail authority's board of directors, said in a statement Tuesday that the board has "carefully constructed a business plan that is mindful of the economic and budgetary constraints facing both the state and the nation."

"It will deliver to California and Californians a cost-effective, efficient, and sensible alternative to more highways and increased airport congestion," Umberg said.

But the business plan, particularly its revised cost estimate, is also expected to add fuel to the criticism from Sacramento lawmakers who have long argued that the project is too expensive and should be scrapped. At Tuesday's briefing on the business plan, state Assemblywoman Diane Harkey, a leading critic of the project, said the state is already "drowning in debt" and predicted that the system would require government subsidies.

"I think there's going to be a sticker shock for the people of California," Harkey, R-Dana Point, said. "The more they know, the less they'll like it. It shouldn't be that way with something this important."

Gordon offered a more measured response, but also said he is concerned about the latest cost estimate for the project. In a statement, Gordon called high-speed rail "a powerful vision and dream" and said he hopes the state will find the means to implement this vision. But he said he was "concerned about the present price tag and the expectation that much of this will be paid for utilizing public funds."

"California remains in a fiscal crisis," Gordon said. "We do not have enough revenue to meet our expenses as is.

"Until we address our structural fiscal problems, I do not see how California can afford additional debt from high-speed rail."

Comments

USA
Old Mountain View
on Nov 1, 2011 at 10:58 pm
USA, Old Mountain View
on Nov 1, 2011 at 10:58 pm

It should be great fun to go back through the old MV Voice articles to find all those grandiose statements from Eshoo and other wonks about how wonderful an idea HSR was and how they would contain costs.


speechless
Blossom Valley
on Nov 1, 2011 at 11:13 pm
speechless, Blossom Valley
on Nov 1, 2011 at 11:13 pm

wow. from $36B to nearly $100B before the work has even begun. can't wait to see what the tally is after completion of the first phase. A few key notes on the comparison to air travel:
- first, many infrastructure improvements (runways) are paid for by the user via various taxes and tickets, av fuel, etc rather than by every man, woman and child in the state (as well as others states through federal grants) whether or not they actually use HSR.
- Second, the efficiency of HSR and air travel depend greatly on ridership... high ridership air travel actually rivals low ridership rail (<1 MJ/PaxKM). The business plan now mentions less service to maintain high utilization, which should guarantee efficiency, but at the expense of convenience.
- Air traffic delays between SFO and LA-Basin are not dictated by too many flights, but rather by SFO being reduced to one runway when the ceiling drops too low... in the timeframe of HSR, this limitation should be largely removed and "one in four flights" will NOT be delayed an hour or more (as claimed in the report).
- The business plan does not adequately address security, except as to state that HSR will not inconvenience passengers as air travel does via checkin/security screening. True, there will be no massive HSR terminal with hundreds of HSR lines, but any HSR system that can compete with road and air for passenger movement will require security and be a big target (1600 passengers per train). Thus, security will not be limited to checkin and will be required for the lines as well... no simple undertaking, and certainly worth mentioning in terms of cost projections.
And yes, the ridership projections are still rosy... HSR will not supplant all road and air travel between SoCal and NorCal, and even if it largely does, the ridership projections are well in excess (twice) of even that current tally. Thus, the arguments that HSR is less costly than what would be required for road and air assumes improvements in those areas will not be required anyway (e.g. for more long-haul flights). HSR is only part of the efficient transit that Japan and other nations have... California does not have the efficient connections to the rail backbone needed to achieve the ridership projections, and such improvements would need to be considered in the cost as well, or ridership revised downward accordingly.

I'd bet that the eventual cost (not that it will likely happen), will triple yet again... this is a $300 BILLION project... and we just don't have that kind of money in the foreseeable future.


USA
Old Mountain View
on Nov 1, 2011 at 11:15 pm
USA, Old Mountain View
on Nov 1, 2011 at 11:15 pm

That didn't take long. Not three months ago, the figure was a mear $43 billion Web Link

And who can forget the $100,000 Mtn View spent on four cartoons drawings of a would-be HSR station.

My favorite quote from Eshoo in regard to HSR: "This is no time to stand down or step back," Eshoo said in her statement. "For those of us who believe government can be a source of solutions and a vehicle for progress, we must make it so." Web Link


Steve
Sylvan Park
on Nov 2, 2011 at 7:53 am
Steve, Sylvan Park
on Nov 2, 2011 at 7:53 am

I'm shocked! Who could possibly have forseen a government spending plan going over budget.


Martin Omander
Rex Manor
on Nov 2, 2011 at 3:32 pm
Martin Omander, Rex Manor
on Nov 2, 2011 at 3:32 pm

At least somebody ran the numbers on the rail project. No-one is examining the cost of the pollution and congestion that cars produce. It's a classic case of "tragedy of the commons".

Web Link


Chuck
Gemello
on Nov 2, 2011 at 3:33 pm
Chuck, Gemello
on Nov 2, 2011 at 3:33 pm

Don't any of you highly intelligent people out there know how to get this farce repealed?
ENOUGH!


jusme
Blossom Valley
on Nov 2, 2011 at 4:05 pm
jusme, Blossom Valley
on Nov 2, 2011 at 4:05 pm


As I mentioned in this "media" some weeks ago, thank those members
of whatever "Board" for their time and dismiss the whole bunch!
I can't recall being aware of such a flagrant attempt to promote
a public project with so many glaring negatives attached.
The projected cost should be reason enough to put the idea in the proverbial "round file". There is absolutely no convincing
projections that this will be of benefit to anyone - individual
or otherwise. Now go find some other "project" to study!!
(And, thanks to "speechless", above.)


tommygee54
Rex Manor
on Nov 2, 2011 at 4:08 pm
tommygee54, Rex Manor
on Nov 2, 2011 at 4:08 pm

Well if by some miracle that we do get HSR completed by 2033 here in the Bay Area, I will be 78 then, with no need to use it. But perhaps I can visit my cousins in Clovis on HSR before then. Oh wait, we won't have it here yet, so I would not be able to use it from a station here in town because the only available HSR trains will be in the Central Valley.


gcoladon
Registered user
North Whisman
on Nov 2, 2011 at 5:20 pm
gcoladon, North Whisman
Registered user
on Nov 2, 2011 at 5:20 pm

So will there be a referendum on the 2012 ballot that will enable voters to reconsider their support for the HSR project?

Who's going to step up and set one up?


Hardin
Cuesta Park
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Hardin, Cuesta Park
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:47 pm

"At least somebody ran the numbers on the rail project. No-one is examining the cost of the pollution and congestion that cars produce. It's a classic case of "tragedy of the commons"."

--------------

Not sure tragedy of the commons applies in this case. Unless you are postulating that HSR will replace the need for the automobile, a direct comparison of numbers is invalid. HSR is not the singular solution to our transportation problems. It may complement and supplement our existing transportation venues over time, but there's no evidence it will take the place of the automobile or airplane in every given circumstance.

If anything, that is the failure of those who continue to blindly support this white elephant, even after the budget has tripled in size. To commit to spending 100 billion dollars or more, that we don't have, is the equivalent of a Hail Mary, in hopes of getting a desperately desired touchdown, when it isn't really clear, what we gain.


Steve
Old Mountain View
on Nov 2, 2011 at 11:53 pm
Steve, Old Mountain View
on Nov 2, 2011 at 11:53 pm

Where have all the good folks touting the wonders of this ludicrous HSR project gone? By the sound of it you'd think no one voted for the proposition.


Another Steve
Rex Manor
on Nov 3, 2011 at 11:10 am
Another Steve, Rex Manor
on Nov 3, 2011 at 11:10 am

No visionary project (public or private) has ever been built for the original preplanning cost estimate. We are part of why these costs have escalated. If we really wanted what we voted for (I'm not arguing whether we should or not) it could already be under construction in Caltrain right of way near you. Since our elected's decided we told them we did not want it that way, they have complained and litigated on our behalf so that construction starts in the middle of nowhere, and has to get somewhere before anyone will ride it, thus it all takes longer and costs more. We are more than 35 million Californians today. If we become more than 50 million anytime in the next 25 years, we'll wish we already had this. Governments don't predict the future any better than those who vote for government, so just pick a position and follow your vision.

I don't know, but I'm guessing that stray fields from Maglev trains in a narrow rail corridor would mess up many modern devices. Maybe that is another facet of democracy that the Chinese don't have to concern themselves with. Maybe electric rail technology will survive another 75 years, but in the depth of the Great Depression, nobody but Bill and Dave was envisioning Silicon Valley either.


Otto Maddox
Monta Loma
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Otto Maddox, Monta Loma
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:18 pm

Don't blame me, I voted NO on this prop.

Anyone notice that a ticket is going to cost $81 each way?

I take fligths to L.A. on Southwest routinely for $89 and sometimes I can even get them for $59.

Why would I ever take a train when I can fly on a plane that is faster than any train ever built?


Rodger
Sylvan Park
on Nov 3, 2011 at 10:32 pm
Rodger, Sylvan Park
on Nov 3, 2011 at 10:32 pm

For the last two years I have predicted that this was a $100B project, now they are finally saying yes it is a super over priced project. I voted no when I had the chance however with the nonsense the promoters were saying at the time it passed with something like 53% yes. I would like to get a chance to vote no again, this time I think the nos would be about 60%.


Another Steve
Rex Manor
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:50 am
Another Steve, Rex Manor
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:50 am

Folks (and Otto & Rodger)

I get it. Many folks do not see the future value. I've seen this movie before though. In the sixties San Mateo County had Southern Pacific, and Santa Clara County still had a lot of row crops and orchards. Therefore both counties opted out of BART, later to be burdened with SFO Bart at 3x cost, and VTA Light Rail at high cost and limited utility.

It is fine with me that you don't believe in the future, but the strident language about NEVER could easily be proven wrong. As just one example, what happens to your flight to LA when the price of jet fuel triples in two years someday? You'll want an alternative, but big projects take a long time.


Hardin
Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 10:04 am
Hardin, Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 10:04 am

"No visionary project (public or private) has ever been built for the original preplanning cost estimate."

----------------

Let us hope you will have this same positive attitude, when your general contractor gives you same explanation, concerning his bill for the remodel of your home...

Few will dispute the desire to expand our portfolio of EFFECTIVE mass transit options for this state. But the costs must be considered, even more so considering the deplorable condition of the state's finances.

The Big Dig, already considered to be one of the most expensive public project catastrophes started out as a 2 billion dollar project. It ballooned 7 times to 15 billion. HSR was projected to cost 35 billion at the outset, and has already risen to 100 billion without a single shovel hitting the dirt.

And as your quote suggests, the costs most certainly won't stop there.


Another Steve
Rex Manor
on Nov 4, 2011 at 11:16 am
Another Steve, Rex Manor
on Nov 4, 2011 at 11:16 am

Time Out: A home remodel is an agreement between two parties. The number of stakeholders on a project like CAHSR is not comparable. HSR did not have money to do detailed studies prior to the ballot measure being approved. They did publish what they had, but apparently many voters ignored it all.

Would you have asked JFK to give you a Guaranteed Maximum Price for putting an American on the moon? The ballot language does preclude subsidized operations, which perversely may be part of what is scaring off private investors, causing the new business plan to delay full implementation, causing the new estimate to rise by the costs of those delays. This is all radically different than two parties agreeing to scope and cost of a well understood project similar to thousands of others. I work with contractors for a living by the way.


Arnold
North Whisman
on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:26 pm
Arnold, North Whisman
on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:26 pm

@Another Steve:

Regarding tripling of the price of jet fuel in 2 years: If that happens HSR will the be the least of our worries.

Let's face it railroads are a technology of the 1800s, and using them for inter-regional or transcontinental travel is looking to the past, and not the future. You can speed up the trains as much as you want, but you're still bound by the destination of the rails.

Folks constantly tout the merits of high speed rail in Europe. The problem is that in many cases rail is a complete pain in the behind to use, and traveling by air is faster, cheaper, and more convenient. For example, try traveling by rail from Oslo to London.

Personally, I like the direction of increased efficiencies in commercial aircraft including the use of advanced composites, ever more efficient engines, and biofuels.


Hardin
Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 8:38 pm
Hardin, Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 8:38 pm

"This is all radically different than two parties agreeing to scope and cost of a well understood project similar to thousands of others."

-----------

With all the differences between a home remodel and HSR, one thing remains the same: costs matter (and the client tends to be a multi-headed beast). Just as having a house with no roof is of little use, so will HSR be of little good, unless the entire scope of work is completed. That means we're committed to completing this project, regardless of what the costs turns out to be, change orders and all, once we start down this path.

A good estimator will get the numbers close, including contingency for the things that inevitably will creep up in a project like this, like the inevitable delays due to public discourse and disclosure.

The fact that the initial estimate is so far off from the current one tells me the HSR group either doesn't know what their doing, or projected a best case scenario. Either option speaks volumes to me about how this project will turn out in their hands.


Hardin
Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Hardin, Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:19 pm

"Would you have asked JFK to give you a Guaranteed Maximum Price for putting an American on the moon?"

--------------

Um, Time Out: Are you serious about your comparison of the Apollo program to HSR?

1. Aside from the value of national pride gained from the Apollo mission, and getting winning a pissing match with the USSR, let's remember the long term value from the Apollo mission was the spur in science and technology that it inspired, which gave birth to areas like Silicon Vally, and the benefits that the general public continues to enjoy today in everyday appliances incorporating this technology.

I don't see us inheriting anything like that from HSR, except for a very large bill.


Hardin
Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:40 pm
Hardin, Cuesta Park
on Nov 4, 2011 at 9:40 pm

With all the excuses being provided in an attempt to justify a $100 billion price tag, little has been said about the opportunity cost, what else could be done with that money:

For instance, California's current budget deficit is estimated to be about $25 billion, and just look at how hard its been to fund that discrepancy, which is only a quarter in size to HSR's "estimated" cost.

Or if we were to just focus these funds on green technologies, let's consider that the largest grants by the federal government to business have been in the $500 million to 1 billion range, only a tenth to what is being proposed to be spent on this rail line.

Consider too, the outrage generated when a company like Solyndra squanders $500 million of the government's money. Yet there are those here who do not hesitate to hand over 20 times that amount to an organization that has no experience managing a construction project of this size or ilk, without blinking an eye?

Show me proof of due diligence in all this, if it can be found.


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